"I believe that spiritual maturity is not the ability to see the extraordinary, but the ability to see the ordinary through God's eyes. Consequently, no matter how wonderful our experience or encounter is with God, the test of it's worth is in the fruit it bears in our lives and the lives of others. " - Frank Viola
Tuesday, July 7, 2009
Indians
So what do you guys think about the plight of the native Americans? And if there were a tribe trying to regain it's independence from the United States what would you think about it?
Alex, that's a pretty broad question, though thanks heaps for asking it. What, specifically, regarding the plight of the Native North Americans are you speaking of? The fact that they have the highest rates of suicide out of anyone in the entire world? Or, the problem with the continual oppression of the systemic powers? Or, the continual attempt of the U.S. and Canadian governments to "acquire" land through power plays, extremely cheap ass prices, etc.? Are we talking about the continual cycle of dependency in regard to the "rehab" centers for alcoholism and drug addiction? Are we talking about the neo-colonial methods of continued assimilation? Are we discussing the problems on the rez (reservations/reserves) or the problems that urban native people have in regard to being separated from their language and culture? Are we discussing the problems with the lack of rites of passage that bring meaning and understanding, including life, to young Native North Americans, thus raising the chances of keeping kids out of gangs and the drug scene? What about the difficulty of Native American Christians to worship Creator in a way that respects their culture because they've been told by white churches (yes, unfortunately, still today) that their ways are evil?
Can you centralize the question by discussing the situation in your own backyard? To make the question local? "so what do you guys think about the plight of the Native Americans in our backyard?"
In regard to independency from imperialistic governments like the U.S. and Canada, the Anishnaabek (Ojibway) people of Eastern Canada and their work with the removal of the Indian Act is worth researching, as is the current, ongoing land claim war of the Six Nations Confederacy in Ontario.
Love and miss you guys. :) Peace. Dan
P.S. Still working through all those questions and will probably be until the day that I die, hopefully.
Dan, I was hoping you would comment on this post, as you and Jeanine are WAY more in the know about all of this. Thanks for the dialogue and the tips - we'll look into it.
Well Dan all of the points you just brought up are the things that i'm trying to open a dialouge about. But the reason i asked these two questions and to touch on yours about the indians in our "backyard" is, the Lakota indians of South Dakota have declared independence and withdrawn from all treaties that it had with the US government. And I was trying to get a feel of what our community thought about the topic in general. I kinda think that if we were to help these people we could fulfill almost every thing we have talked about in terms of new monastism and social justice: relocation to abandond places, racial and cultural equality, poverty issues, spiritual issues, a rual setting to do our gardening, touching the world on a internaional level,ect. ect. if you guys want to look into it, look up the republic of lakota or russle means.
Alex what do you mean by "help" them? For me this is the overwhelming question. Would the lakota welcome this help? As a white American I feel like it is incredibly hard to "help" the indigneous population just because the history of the relationship of "helping" between indigenous and non-indigenous people.
With that being said I don't think it is impossible and I feel like indigenous cultures welcome people of difference as family a lot easier than "western culture". My family lived on the Fort Peck reservation when I was born and to this day my dad claims that Mrs. Rising Sun adopted me as her grand-child.
As I look at student teaching on the reservation next year, I'm still struggling with how I help kids understand themselves and their culture touching on many of the topics Dan brought up when I myself am not a part of it.
I've always talked... talked... talked...
Now I'm gonna have to figure out how I act :)
+++Australia's indigenous population faces many of the same problems
I agree with the question of how to "help." One thing that I've learned is that Native folk don't really want imposed help as it's been offered. Typically, it seems to be perceived as condescending, as it has been in the past, and in many ways, continues to be to this day (not that that is what you guys are intending). Many Native people do want to walk with non-Native people; however, what they have found is that once the issues begin to arise, most non-Native people leave the proverbial table. It is not an easy table at which to sit. It is difficult, humbling, messy, and, sometimes, extremely painful. I'm sure you all have experienced this in Montana. I pray that God provides more and more opportunities for that for you all.
Alex, what do you mean by help? And, to what degree does this speak more to your own needs than the needs of the Native people? Are you willing, in the journey of finding that, to empty yourself of those needs (Philippians 2-ish)in order that the needs of the Other might be met?
To add to what Camille said, do the Lakota WANT the help? I think that one thing we struggle, if not fail, to see is that we think we actually have something to offer. Now, we may have something to offer, but every Native culture has protocol, and to impose our help upon them is a breaking of that protocol. Invitation is very important to Native people; therefore, have you been invited to help? Do you know any Lakota people who you could express your desire to who can help guide you in the right way of going about this? Jeanine and I have an Uncle who is Lakota, if your further interested in this route. However, I would further press the question of what you can do in your own backyard, as that speaks to locality. Browning, too, is an abandoned place in empire.
A couple of questions here - what do you know of Native worldview? what do you know of how Native followers of Jesus walk the "good red road?" what do you know of Native culture in general? And, how may the way in which you understand what it means to live and walk with Jesus impede a relationship that fosters freedom from systemic injustices against Native North Americans? And, are you willing to have your own worldview shaken in order to walk together with the Other?
Some links: www.wiconi.com (our Uncle Richard - Lakota Sioux) www.eagleswingsministry.com (our Uncle Randy - he writes for Sojourners magazine and might be helpful in answering some of your questions)
Both Richard and Randy and their families are on the West coast (Richard in Washington; Randy in Oregon). I'll have to ask them if I can give you their email addresses, but if you continue to be interested in this, I can ask. Just let me know. And, maybe just maybe, when we come down to hang out with you guys, Jeanine can speak of her experiences as a Native woman. Again, just let me know.
Love you guys. Dan
P.S. for another resources on global indigenous issues, check out http://indigenouspeoplesissues.com
Well from what i've reaserched the lakota are very open to their white brothers, they seem not to hold a grudge. And by help them I mean in their fight for freedom. Not only in the politial sence but help free them from the culture of dependancy and supression that our government has put upon them. To be honest I know very little of native culture. Infact I never really cared too much before. But the more I look in to it the more I respect it. And it kinda pisses me off what has happened to it as a result of imperialism. And Camille, if you do go teach on a reservation all I can say is be real. Don't try to be something that your not and don't try to turn them into something that their not. Your a good person and regaurdless of your cultural background I'm sure that you will touch those kids in a very positive way.
I think that rallying everyone state side to allow them to go through with their Independence is the best role that we all can play. I think that us marching into their territory to "save the day" sends the wrong message and also I think that its important for them as a people to be able to do it themselves. Once that Independence is declared, I wonder if that would be the best opportunity to seek out relationships in a different way. And I honestly don't think its safe for us to assume anything, I mean without knowing anyone from the Lakota tribe, its difficult to really judge whether or not they would have a grudge. I feel that after a couple hundred years of our genocide like relationship I have a hard time seeing them stoked on a buncha white folks charity.... :)....also I think its important that we talk about rollin' up to Canadia and hanging out with Dan and Jeanine and learning proper Native American etiquette... (I don't think its recommended to call them Indians... )
Hey I can't post my own message sooo I'm just gonna post here. Casey and I are going to San Francisco in less than a month. One of the ministries they focus on is Justice Matters. The website is www.becausejusticematters.org and the YWAM site is www.ywamsanfrancisco.org. I'm super interested in it. I'm raising money for my friends that have just started a youth home as part of the ministry in an inner city community they are living in a community and just getting to know their neighbors and work slowly to help their gang saturated community. Much like a lot of what we've been talking about. Its a slow process because they just can't walk into a lot of the projects but have begun to make key relationships.
Sometimes I think that one of the best things that our little MT community could do is join another community for a time to really just LEARN. But at the same time you just learn as you go right? I guess for me its just finding out of the many battles to fight which one I want to focus on. THERE ARE HEAPS. But to really impact you can't try to fight them all.
P.S. for more of what we are always talking about free trade and what not you should check out "the story of stuff" its just a short video but it talks about production and consumption and has some links to more resources
OHHHH. I'll get an invite to my gmail account. I get it. Well, now it says my invite has expired. So yeah, better try that one again. lorilou.stoffer@gmail.com
Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
Evil and The Justice of God by N.T. Wright
Hurt People Hurt People by Sandra Wilson
12 Marks of a New Monasticism
Followers
The Users of Sweat Shops are:
Nike, Phillips-Van Heusen, Disney, Guess?, The Gap, Banana Republic, Old Navy, Tommy Hilfiger, Reebok, Levi Straus, Liz Claiborne, Ralph Lauren, Mattel,Wal-Mart, Roohsing(Hong Kong clothing company), Kohl's
How are these employees treated? These employees are far from being paid well. They DO NOT even get paid enough to survive on. They also do not get the right to form unions and do not get any benefits. *These people are basically slaves, they are scared into staying, they are paid very, very low wages or nothing at all, and are denied basic benefits and worker's rights(in some cases human rights too).*
How do we fight this form of slavery?
Simply by not financially supporting companies and organizations that use sweat shops and slave labor to produce their products.
Help to stand against this terrible act on our neighbors, support agencies trying to free these people, and support companies who sell products made by freed victims (www.madebysurvivors.com)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlex, that's a pretty broad question, though thanks heaps for asking it. What, specifically, regarding the plight of the Native North Americans are you speaking of? The fact that they have the highest rates of suicide out of anyone in the entire world? Or, the problem with the continual oppression of the systemic powers? Or, the continual attempt of the U.S. and Canadian governments to "acquire" land through power plays, extremely cheap ass prices, etc.? Are we talking about the continual cycle of dependency in regard to the "rehab" centers for alcoholism and drug addiction? Are we talking about the neo-colonial methods of continued assimilation? Are we discussing the problems on the rez (reservations/reserves) or the problems that urban native people have in regard to being separated from their language and culture? Are we discussing the problems with the lack of rites of passage that bring meaning and understanding, including life, to young Native North Americans, thus raising the chances of keeping kids out of gangs and the drug scene? What about the difficulty of Native American Christians to worship Creator in a way that respects their culture because they've been told by white churches (yes, unfortunately, still today) that their ways are evil?
ReplyDeleteCan you centralize the question by discussing the situation in your own backyard? To make the question local? "so what do you guys think about the plight of the Native Americans in our backyard?"
In regard to independency from imperialistic governments like the U.S. and Canada, the Anishnaabek (Ojibway) people of Eastern Canada and their work with the removal of the Indian Act is worth researching, as is the current, ongoing land claim war of the Six Nations Confederacy in Ontario.
Love and miss you guys. :)
Peace.
Dan
P.S. Still working through all those questions and will probably be until the day that I die, hopefully.
Dan, I was hoping you would comment on this post, as you and Jeanine are WAY more in the know about all of this. Thanks for the dialogue and the tips - we'll look into it.
ReplyDeleteWell Dan all of the points you just brought up are the things that i'm trying to open a dialouge about. But the reason i asked these two questions and to touch on yours about the indians in our "backyard" is, the Lakota indians of South Dakota have declared independence and withdrawn from all treaties that it had with the US government. And I was trying to get a feel of what our community thought about the topic in general. I kinda think that if we were to help these people we could fulfill almost every thing we have talked about in terms of new monastism and social justice: relocation to abandond places, racial and cultural equality, poverty issues, spiritual issues, a rual setting to do our gardening, touching the world on a internaional level,ect. ect. if you guys want to look into it, look up the republic of lakota or russle means.
ReplyDeleteAlex what do you mean by "help" them? For me this is the overwhelming question. Would the lakota welcome this help? As a white American I feel like it is incredibly hard to "help" the indigneous population just because the history of the relationship of "helping" between indigenous and non-indigenous people.
ReplyDeleteWith that being said I don't think it is impossible and I feel like indigenous cultures welcome people of difference as family a lot easier than "western culture". My family lived on the Fort Peck reservation when I was born and to this day my dad claims that Mrs. Rising Sun adopted me as her grand-child.
As I look at student teaching on the reservation next year, I'm still struggling with how I help kids understand themselves and their culture touching on many of the topics Dan brought up when I myself am not a part of it.
I've always talked... talked... talked...
Now I'm gonna have to figure out how I act :)
+++Australia's indigenous population faces many of the same problems
Et. al,
ReplyDeleteI agree with the question of how to "help." One thing that I've learned is that Native folk don't really want imposed help as it's been offered. Typically, it seems to be perceived as condescending, as it has been in the past, and in many ways, continues to be to this day (not that that is what you guys are intending). Many Native people do want to walk with non-Native people; however, what they have found is that once the issues begin to arise, most non-Native people leave the proverbial table. It is not an easy table at which to sit. It is difficult, humbling, messy, and, sometimes, extremely painful. I'm sure you all have experienced this in Montana. I pray that God provides more and more opportunities for that for you all.
Alex, what do you mean by help? And, to what degree does this speak more to your own needs than the needs of the Native people? Are you willing, in the journey of finding that, to empty yourself of those needs (Philippians 2-ish)in order that the needs of the Other might be met?
To add to what Camille said, do the Lakota WANT the help? I think that one thing we struggle, if not fail, to see is that we think we actually have something to offer. Now, we may have something to offer, but every Native culture has protocol, and to impose our help upon them is a breaking of that protocol. Invitation is very important to Native people; therefore, have you been invited to help? Do you know any Lakota people who you could express your desire to who can help guide you in the right way of going about this? Jeanine and I have an Uncle who is Lakota, if your further interested in this route. However, I would further press the question of what you can do in your own backyard, as that speaks to locality. Browning, too, is an abandoned place in empire.
A couple of questions here - what do you know of Native worldview? what do you know of how Native followers of Jesus walk the "good red road?" what do you know of Native culture in general? And, how may the way in which you understand what it means to live and walk with Jesus impede a relationship that fosters freedom from systemic injustices against Native North Americans? And, are you willing to have your own worldview shaken in order to walk together with the Other?
Some links: www.wiconi.com (our Uncle Richard - Lakota Sioux)
www.eagleswingsministry.com (our Uncle Randy - he writes for Sojourners magazine and might be helpful in answering some of your questions)
Both Richard and Randy and their families are on the West coast (Richard in Washington; Randy in Oregon). I'll have to ask them if I can give you their email addresses, but if you continue to be interested in this, I can ask. Just let me know. And, maybe just maybe, when we come down to hang out with you guys, Jeanine can speak of her experiences as a Native woman. Again, just let me know.
Love you guys.
Dan
P.S. for another resources on global indigenous issues, check out http://indigenouspeoplesissues.com
Well from what i've reaserched the lakota are very open to their white brothers, they seem not to hold a grudge. And by help them I mean in their fight for freedom. Not only in the politial sence but help free them from the culture of dependancy and supression that our government has put upon them. To be honest I know very little of native culture. Infact I never really cared too much before. But the more I look in to it the more I respect it. And it kinda pisses me off what has happened to it as a result of imperialism. And Camille, if you do go teach on a reservation all I can say is be real. Don't try to be something that your not and don't try to turn them into something that their not. Your a good person and regaurdless of your cultural background I'm sure that you will touch those kids in a very positive way.
ReplyDeleteI think that rallying everyone state side to allow them to go through with their Independence is the best role that we all can play. I think that us marching into their territory to "save the day" sends the wrong message and also I think that its important for them as a people to be able to do it themselves. Once that Independence is declared, I wonder if that would be the best opportunity to seek out relationships in a different way. And I honestly don't think its safe for us to assume anything, I mean without knowing anyone from the Lakota tribe, its difficult to really judge whether or not they would have a grudge. I feel that after a couple hundred years of our genocide like relationship I have a hard time seeing them stoked on a buncha white folks charity.... :)....also I think its important that we talk about rollin' up to Canadia and hanging out with Dan and Jeanine and learning proper Native American etiquette... (I don't think its recommended to call them Indians... )
ReplyDeleteHey I can't post my own message sooo I'm just gonna post here. Casey and I are going to San Francisco in less than a month. One of the ministries they focus on is Justice Matters. The website is www.becausejusticematters.org and the YWAM site is www.ywamsanfrancisco.org. I'm super interested in it. I'm raising money for my friends that have just started a youth home as part of the ministry in an inner city community they are living in a community and just getting to know their neighbors and work slowly to help their gang saturated community. Much like a lot of what we've been talking about. Its a slow process because they just can't walk into a lot of the projects but have begun to make key relationships.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I think that one of the best things that our little MT community could do is join another community for a time to really just LEARN. But at the same time you just learn as you go right? I guess for me its just finding out of the many battles to fight which one I want to focus on. THERE ARE HEAPS. But to really impact you can't try to fight them all.
P.S. for more of what we are always talking about free trade and what not you should check out "the story of stuff" its just a short video but it talks about production and consumption and has some links to more resources
Woah just reread my message and a lot of it doesn't make a heap of sense... kinda scattered this morning... but I'm sure we'll all talk later?
ReplyDeleteI still can't get this thing to let me make posts. It just won't recognize that I am a contributor.
ReplyDeleteWaaaagh.
Can anyone help? I have a gmail account. I went through the steps, and it only shows me as a manager of my personal blog.
Lori -
ReplyDeleteWhat's your gmail again? I can try and send you another invite and you can try again??
OHHHH. I'll get an invite to my gmail account. I get it. Well, now it says my invite has expired. So yeah, better try that one again. lorilou.stoffer@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteSorry, Nikki, and thanks!