Although none of us/you, the typical readers/contributors of/to this blog is Orthodox Christian (to my knowledge, but I can see Alex harboring an icon or two, what with his quiet, meditative ways), and we might not understand all of the images, the message resonates with me in a much deeper way than the standard "get saved" fare we are accustomed to in the American evangelical church.
This is a bit off the beaten path of our compassion discussion, but there are several crossover concepts. I shall refrain from saying any more and see instead where any discussion leads.
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lol... I would say my quiet and meditative ways come more from my study of eastern philosophy than orthodox Christianity, unless of course you believe that Christianity was originally an eastern religion. But the video was neat, and if that is what orthodox Christianity is than I would have to say that's what I am; no icons though.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think that when it said, that we are being saved daily is how we should be empathetic to one another. Understanding that we all play a major role in each others salvation. Understanding that we can provoke one another to love and good works or we can provoke one another the other way. Understanding that we are all on the same boat.
Damn, I miss you guys so much. It'll be good when Jeanine and I can come down and visit; we could really use some help discerning some things, venting about other things, and sharing life with each other. I'll watch this video when I get a chance (no speakers at work...LOL...). Love to you all.
ReplyDeleteAlrighty then. Interesting video to say the least. Jeanine and I are sitting here watching it. My initial thoughts are that her quote of "my individual salvation I work out in fear and trembling" was never what Paul intended to say in Philippians when he wrote that. Philippians is an extremely community focused book, and the pronouns in that passage are plural ones. Though I struggle deeply with this, I think salvation does have an individual aspect to it; however, I do not believe that it is to the extent that the West has lead us to believe it is. I agree with Alex, and think Paul would have as well, that we all share deeply in each others salvation(s).
ReplyDeleteAs an aside for Alex...LOL...:Christianity was, originally, an eastern religion with a non-Western worldview. Eastern Orthodoxy, although they'd like to claim that they weren't, still finds their roots in the Western perspective. However, they are closer to a non-Platonic dualistic worldview than most other Western Christian.
I dig the icons; Jeanine and I have a few of them in our apartment. They're great for prayer meditation and to remember that we're (literally speaking) surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses that continue to pray on our behalf.
I'm not sure how much I see empathy here, unless we consider that icons help us to reflect on Christ, who is the one who truly has the ability to empathize with us, if by empathy we mean "the ability to share and understand the feelings of another."
Or, as my concluding comment, we find in this the ability to empathize with all traditions, whether they be Orthodox, Catholic, Evangelical, our own, or any other Christian group trying to find their way to the cross of Christ. This is a great video, and although I do not agree with some of the theology, I find myself in it empathizing with the person(s) in the great parade of the kingdom, walking toward a home we cannot yet see though we experience glimpses of it here and there on a regular basis.
Love you guys/gals.
Hmmm... a good discussion. The concept of salvation is something I've been contemplating for quite some time, realizing that the "God-shaped hole in your heart" ideas I'd grown up with were harldy even a whisper of the full meaning of salvation.
ReplyDeleteI liked a lot about this video, including the idea of salvation as a conversion process, not a one-time altar call experience. Also, the idea of salvation as something God does not just in us, but through us so that we can in turn reach out to others and transform the world into God's Kingdom here and now (little by little, with Christ's return completing that project).
I see a possible link between this idea of salvation and empathy with the focus on humility. One of the barriers to empathizing with others is thinking you are better or more right than the other. To keep a constantly humble outlook that remembers "I am nothing without Christ" sets you at a better place to grieve with and ultimately forgive another.
I would love to understand salvation as a more communal experience than an individual one. I do so only in glimpses; it's difficult to really free oneself from heavily ingrained theology. But I think of New Testament stories of entire households deciding to follow Christ, basically because the head of the household does (like Paul's jailer).
ReplyDeleteOne way I do understand communal salvation is this. A cousin of mine lost her husband to cancer two years ago and now has cancer herself, and her feelings about God and faith vary a lot through the days and weeks. I am not bothered by this or worried that she will lose her salvation if she doesn't maintain a faith that looks exactly like it did when she was healthy. One reason is that I feel her community's faith is strong and active. They are interceding for her when she doesn't have the literal or figurative strength. I think it takes some of the pressure off of an individual to perform. Fear not; I can see where that line of reasoning could lead if taken to an extreme - nobody ever caring how their individual actions affect the group. But does anybody get what I'm saying?
As for compassion, yes, one crossover point for me was giving grace/compassion/understanding to people with variations on our faith, rather than working so hard to highlight our differences.
I have nothing relitivly inteligent or yet iquivilintly indepth in thought to contribute to the conversation being as how everyone here so far beond me - Justin Krauss
ReplyDeleteJustin bro, I think your a lot smarter than you give yourself credit for. Because there's a whole lot more to intelligence than big words and book smarts, especially when it comes to spiritual things.
ReplyDeleteLori, great words here. Indeed, the New Testament, and the Hebrew Scriptures for that matter, place stronger emphasis on community salvation than on individual salvation. This becomes clearer when we realize that most of the New Testament writings (all of the Gospels and most of the epistles) are directed at communities of Jesus followers, not individual Jesus followers, though there are examples of this as evidenced in Titus, Philemon, and Jude. Moreover, the Hebrew Scriptures are primarily written to the entire people of Israel. Needless to say, God is interested in saving a people who follow after his own name. After the Englightenment, the concept and philosophy of individualism came like a landslide into the Church and we grossly overstated the need for "individual" salvation. I think these days, the Church is making a slow swing back toward the middle and away from the extreme.
ReplyDeleteJustin, I agree with Alex, bro. You have plenty to say and are not behind. The irony of walking with Jesus is that we all ebb and flow, pulling each other to place of equality on the road to Jesus. I wish, on most days, that I had the gentleness and compassion for people, and an outlook to see the good in most everyone you meet. We all have a helluva lot to learn from each other. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts here on the root diggers blog, bro. :) Miss you guys and am looking forward to seeing you all the first weekend in July.
Love you guys.
Dan
Justin, you are such a cool cat. I wouldn't worry one drip about the discussion if it's not scratching you where it itches.
ReplyDeleteBut, out of curiosity, did the video clip hold any meaning for you?
There's a worship song on an album that Waterdeep helped to compile. Part of the song says, "All of you who call yourself the children of God, lift His Name to the high place in your heart."
ReplyDeleteWhat Dan said about God being interested in calling a people to Himself reminds me of it.